Offline interview 08/31/2025

2025/8/31

Interviewee: “Sarnai” (pseudonym), ethnic Mongolian, professional psychologist who has worked for nearly a decade counselling pastoral families in Inner Mongolia.

中文采访稿

问：能不能跟我讲一下您的职业大概会和什么样的人打交道？

答：生活中我一开始是开发廊的我，开了23年。这三年我已经改行了，我现在采访的家庭教育和心理学协同这方面。其实我把这个心理学学完已经十几年了，因为我老大就是一年级开始，我就开始就看了这心理这方面的这些书籍。现在心理学导师的证也考下来了。我家庭教育和心理学这方面已经是快到十年了。我现在找到的这些人是都是家长为主。

问：一般家长都是因为会有什么样的问题，从您的观察大家会有什么样的烦恼？

答：家长因为是孩子的烦恼而跟我联系，背后的问题是还是家长有些生活的压力或者是家庭的事情影响了孩子。工作上的、家庭上的亲密关系、夫妻关系还有婆媳关系都有。

问：不知道在您的咨询工作中会不会有患者/顾客是牧民这样的身份，或者是和这样的职业相关的身份？

答：牧民的有。

问：那他们现在现代的牧民的生活是怎么样的，他们不在城市定居吗？

答：他们就是有的城市，一般是在牧区。现在因为牧区没有学校，孩子没办法上学，你看孩子不上学就没去，人就更没有办法，为了就是让孩子上学，他们就来到那个城市。

问：他们从前是在牧区从事这样的工作，后来为了孩子的学业搬到城市里了？

答：对。不需要换工作，有的就是父母没有工作的，他们过来打工；有的就是他就是奶奶、爷爷看孩子，父母在家放羊放牛；有的一般就是父母过来看孩子一边打工一边看孩子上学、供孩子上学。家庭方面出问题的最多的地方妈妈上城市来看孩子，爸爸在家放羊放牛，这样就是他们离远了，守着守着就散了。前两年前几年这样的事情可多了，反正今年去年开始差点，但是也是有。家长的这些事情就是导致孩子抑郁症。

问：那您觉得这个核心问题还是牧区没有很好的学校，大家都愿意到城市。

答：对，你看牧区小学、幼儿园都没有，孩子还得在宿舍住。因为牧区本身就是天天放羊、放牛，就是活多，不就不可能就是我们跟那个街里认识的就是早上送孩子、晚上接孩子，不，没有那个时间，所以就是他们星期一送去星期五接过来这样的。

问：所以比较多的牧民就是会来您这里，他们最大的心理困扰就是体现在这种家庭的困难上，就是孩子上学的。会有没有牧民去来跟表现出，比如说对现在他们是传统的生活方式、谋生方式，可能因为时代的发展也是有了一些变化，使得他们感到困扰？

答：我感觉有。别看牧区人就是放羊放牛，他们都是自己的，地里放不让就是随便放。现在一年一年地卷着，有的条件好的还行，就是买少买什么料什么的，把羊什么的牛什么的养好了；但是条件不好的就没办法。这就是我感觉就是社会一发展以后就是牧民的人更有压力了，就是没有那种自由自在的生活，就是压力特别大。再说了，现在这两年牛羊的价格也便宜了，苞米什么的挺贵的，但是就是羊牛价格落下来了，所以生计上也有一些问题。

问：那他们会不会想，就是可能去尝试以新的领域，或者是走出他们原来这个传统的这种舒适区去试图，比如说去城市里面找新的工作、新的发展？

答：他们那个年轻人的话有这个想法，没有念过书的走不出来。再说了，我们一开始念的是蒙文，他们出来的话就是汉文。前些日子我直播了，就在那个公众号上，我蒙语说的，他们让我说那个普通话，把我直播给关了好几次。

问：是平台关的吗？

答：因为我说的是蒙语，他们听不懂；我不说蒙语的话，我这边的学生听不懂。你看（牧民）上街里来了，或者是大城市来了，他们看不懂汉语听不懂汉语，他们来干啥来。

问：您觉得在从您的角度来讲，现在内蒙说蒙语和说汉语的比例使用的比例大概是多少？如果从牧民的角度、从牧区来看，是不是大家还都是在说蒙语？

答：大家都说蒙语。现在就是开始，今年25年开始，蒙语好像不让考了。现在政策出来了，不让考了。

问：甚至连牧区都不让考？

答：牧区他们可以看蒙文书，考高考的时候就是蒙语，好像是百分之几，好像是也不让考了。再说了，现在找工作也是，考公务员或者是考什么单位都是汉语考，普通话考。你看这样说的话，区别可大了，因为我们小时候也是都是念的蒙文、读的蒙文，他们就是靠蒙文的话，就是公务员考的比例就小了，找工作的比例就小了。

问：您觉得现在出台这个政策，他背后是一个什么动机？例如是否是觉得可能普通话更方便各个民族之间的人、不同地区的人之间的交流，也是为这种现代化发展给咱们内蒙的蒙族人更多的机会？您觉得这个汉语能让您的生活变得更便利吗？还是对于大部分的在内蒙的同胞来说，其实这样的政策对他们可能并没有很大的益处。

答：其实对老年人来说是就是没什么就是益处，但是就是对将来的孩子，我们的孩子来说是，这也是我感觉也是挺好的。一年级开始就学汉语了，我感觉这也是挺好的。有他的好处也有坏处。

问：您就是觉得在您的记忆里有没有某一个场景是必须用，比如说蒙古语才能完全表达情感的，它是否代表偶尔会承载一种不可替代的文化，是汉语很难准确翻译的？

答：我现在是这些课程都是汉语学的，我上北京了，上哪都是汉语学，但是我反过来给学生讲的时候蒙语讲。对我来说是也是没啥问题，但是对学生来说是：“老师这个汉语我听不懂，那个汉语我听不懂”，这样有的汉语确实反过来蒙语说的时候费劲。蒙语表达和汉语表达不一样：汉语说的话，“吃饭了”这么说，但是蒙语说的话是“饭吃”。汉语的话，吃饭吃是前饭是后，都是这样反过来了。其实有的时候对我来说是也是挺难的，但是我已经就是努力学十几年了，就这样就是努力过来了，就是其实汉语学的话又感觉就是如果自己努力的话也挺好学的，但是你看有的牧区的人他们就是固有思维，新的认知和新的思维影响不了他们，因为他们是几代的环境在那。

问：那您觉得蒙语里面有没有那种一个谚语或者是哪些词，它背后有故事的那种词，这样词或者谚语是汉语很难去非常准确的翻译的？

答：我感觉有。你看蒙语永远是这么立着的，知道吧，汉语是这么横着写的。蒙语是就是立着走的，知道吧，立着走，但是汉语是横着走的。你看有的时候说蒙语的话，就是说的特别好听。他那语言调什么的特别好听，但是就是汉语有的时候就是表达那个表达不好了，或者好像是说我坏话或者是骂人似的这样感觉，但是蒙语不是。

问：您觉得哪个可能写字会更快一点？

答：我感觉还是蒙语写的快，但是他蒙语占地方占的多，汉语占地方占的少。

问：我看到外蒙就是蒙古国，他们有个很有趣的案例。他们在上世纪40年代的时候引用了俄文，就是西里尔字母，所以传统书写就淡出了日常生活，他们政府最近两年又决定要重新启用传统书写就是他们新的政策。从今年开始，他们要在所有的官方文件里，重新用传统书写的蒙文。

答：那天我看了他们新闻。

问：您觉得您听到新闻，您的反应是什么？

答：我的反应挺高兴的，那天我在那个公众号上看着在学校教蒙语了，我看了那个视频就是差点流泪了。去年什么时候来，我忘了在那个视频号上，好像是美国还是在哪学那个蒙语的也有。

问：那如果未来内蒙也有类似这种的复兴传统文化传统文字的这种计划，您是不是也会非常支持对？

答：对哈哈。

问：您希望外界尤其是非蒙古族的群体理解的关于蒙古语和蒙古文化的最重要的一点是什么？

答：传统蒙语一开始也是不是这样的，他们一点一点变了，今天的这个蒙古语我们已经说习惯了。你看其实有的地方的蒙语和我们说的蒙语还不一样，你都是有自己的特点和自己的习惯；那天我在那个新闻上看新疆蒙语，他们说的也不一样。

问：会不会有的牧民可能因为禁牧搬迁、或者是您说不能自由放牧这样的政策导致收入减少？

答：对。

问：政府是会有补贴吗？补贴什么程度上能帮助到他们？

答：其实对我来说补贴一方面感觉挺好的，就是有人给他们补贴了，有另一个方面，他们就想“政府给补贴了，我们就不干活了”，就待着了。有的真有这样的想法。

问：那就是大家的正常生活都能靠补贴维持？

答：靠不住，每天补贴一点，有的几千块钱，现在几千块在哪？

问：这么多年来，他补贴也没有根据现在的经济状况，就是往往上提？还是一直没变？

答：现在消费也高，牧区生消费更高。你看他们现在有的时候就是放羊放牛他们卖少，也没有地，他们就是宿地放羊、放放牛。地也挺贵的。

问：因为地是政府的地吗？

答: 不是政府的，就是谁家地多，谁家牛多的话就是租他们家的地。

问：所以您觉得像补贴这样的官方支持并不能弥补心理上的一些失落或者是经济上的一些落差？

答：对，心理上的不都和生活上的补助都不一样。把这两个给分开就好了，你看如果学学过那个心理学的人的话，都知道把这个人和事分开，但是我们牧区人遇到什么事了，就当作是一家人的事情、捆到一起了。

问：一般您觉得这种情况作为心理咨询师会怎么样给他们支持和帮助？

答：其实就是辅导他们就是给他们讲点知识，生活发展的知识，但是有的时候就是心理学的老师讲课的话他们不认知道吧？“我们心里没什么问题，凭啥就是听心理学老师的讲课”，有的人都这么想。这些人特别有矛盾。明明就是他们家里有事导致孩子现在抑郁，跟他那么说的话，“你看我们家能有啥事了，孩子有吃的有喝的有穿的，却不好好上学”，他就这样特别矛盾。

问：那您说比如说以后有孙子孙女了，学校里面只教普通话，您在家里面会教他们蒙语吗？

答：会，我们家蒙语的书本多了。

问：还是要把传承下去？

答：对。

English Transcript:

Q: Could you tell me what kind of people you usually work with in your profession?

A: In my earlier life, I ran a hair salon—did that for 23 years. Over the past three years, I’ve changed careers. Now I work mainly in family education and psychology-related counselling. Actually, I started studying psychology more than ten years ago, when my eldest child entered Grade 1. I began reading psychology books at that time. Now I’ve also obtained my psychological counselling certification. I’ve been working in family education and psychology for nearly a decade. Most of the people I work with now are parents.

Q: Generally speaking, what kinds of problems do parents come to you with? What worries do you notice most often?

A: Parents usually contact me because of their children’s problems, but behind those issues, there are often pressures the parents themselves face—life stress, family conflicts, work problems, intimacy issues, marital tensions, even conflicts between daughters-in-law and mothers-in-law.

Q: Do you also have clients who are herders or who come from pastoral backgrounds?

A: Yes, I do.

Q: What is life like for modern pastoral families? Don’t they settle in cities?

A: Some live in cities, but many still live in the pastoral areas. But because there are no schools in the pasture, children have no way to attend school. If kids can’t study, the family has no choice—they have to move to the city for their children’s education.

Q: So they originally lived and worked in the pastoral area, but moved to the city so their children could study?

A: Yes. Some don’t need to change jobs—some parents stay in the pastoral area herding sheep and cattle, while grandparents take the children to the city. Some parents come to the city themselves, working part-time while also taking care of their children’s schooling. But most family problems come from this separation: mothers move to the city to care for the children, while fathers stay home to herd animals. Over time, the distance breaks the relationship. There were many such cases a few years ago— perhaps fewer now, but still happening. These family issues often lead to depression in children.

Q: So the core issue is that there are no good schools in the pastoral regions, and everyone wants to move to the city?

A: Yes. There are no primary schools or kindergartens in many pastoral areas. Children have to live in dormitories. Pastoral life is full of daily work—herding sheep and cattle—so parents can’t do what urban families do, like dropping children off at school every morning. Instead, they send their kids on Monday and pick them up on Friday.

Q: So many herders come to you with problems mainly related to family difficulties caused by their children’s schooling situation. But are there also cases where they feel troubled because their traditional way of life or livelihood is changing due to modernization?

A: I think so. Even though herders mainly raise livestock, it’s not as free as before—grazing is restricted. Some families with better financial conditions can still afford to feed and manage their animals well, but those with fewer resources struggle. As society develops, pressure on herders actually increases. Life is no longer carefree—the stress is huge. And in recent years, livestock prices have fallen, while things like corn prices have risen. So economically, too, they’re facing difficulties.

Q: Do some of them consider trying new fields or stepping out of their traditional comfort zone—like going to cities to look for new opportunities?

A: Young people do think about it. But those who haven’t had an education can’t really leave. And we originally studied in Mongolian—once you leave, everything is in Mandarin. Recently, I did a livestream on a public account; because I spoke Mongolian, they shut my livestream down several times and told me to speak Mandarin. But if I don’t speak Mongolian, my students won’t understand. When herders come to the city, they often can’t read or understand Mandarin—so what can they do?

Q: From your perspective, what is the approximate ratio of Mongolian to Mandarin usage in Inner Mongolia today? Especially in pastoral regions, do people still mainly speak Mongolian?

A: Yes, everyone still speaks Mongolian. But starting in 2025, it seems that Mongolian exams may no longer be allowed. The new policy says Mongolian might not be permitted in exams anymore.

Q: Even in pastoral areas?

A: They can still read Mongolian books, but for the college entrance exam, the share of Mongolian exams has been reduced—some say it may be eliminated. And for jobs—civil service exams, government positions—everything is in Mandarin. This makes a big difference. We grew up studying in Mongolian, so if everything is assessed in Mandarin, our chances in civil service or job opportunities become much smaller.

Q: What do you think is the motivation behind this policy? For example, do you think the idea is to improve communication between ethnic groups, or to give Mongolian children more opportunities in a modern society where Mandarin is dominant? Does Mandarin make life more convenient for you, or do you feel the policy isn’t necessarily beneficial for most people?

A: For older people, it’s not very beneficial. But for the younger generation—for our children—I actually think it has advantages. Starting Mandarin from Grade 1 can be a good thing. There are pros and cons.

Q: In your memory, is there any moment when only Mongolian could fully express your emotions? Does Mongolian carry cultural meanings that Mandarin cannot accurately express?

A: All my courses were learned in Mandarin—whether in Beijing or elsewhere. But when I teach students, I switch to Mongolian. For me, it’s fine, but students say, “Teacher, I don’t understand this Mandarin word.” Some Mandarin phrases really are hard to translate directly. The structure is different: in Mandarin, you say “eat food,” but in Mongolian it becomes “food eat.” It’s reversed. Sometimes it’s difficult, but after ten years of effort, I’ve gotten used to it. Mandarin is learnable if you work hard, but many herders have fixed ways of thinking—their environment for generations hasn’t changed.

Q: Is there a Mongolian proverb or a word with a story behind it that’s hard to translate into Mandarin?

A: Many. Mongolian is written vertically; Chinese is horizontal. Mongolian sounds very beautiful—the tones, the expressions. But when the same thing is said in Mandarin, it sometimes sounds unpleasant, even like criticism or scolding. Mongolian doesn’t feel like that.

Q: Which script is faster to write?

A: Mongolian is faster for me, but it takes more space on the page. Mandarin takes less space.

Q: I saw an interesting case in Mongolia (Outer Mongolia). In the 1940s, they adopted Cyrillic, and the traditional script faded from daily life. Recently, the government decided to revive the traditional script, requiring all official documents to use it again.

A: Yes, I saw that news.

Q: What was your reaction when you saw it?

A: I was very happy. When I saw the video of schools teaching traditional Mongolian script again, I almost cried. I also saw videos from America—or somewhere—of people learning Mongolian.

Q: If Inner Mongolia had a similar cultural and script revival in the future, would you support it?

A: Yes, absolutely! (laughs)

Q: What is the most important thing you want non-Mongolians to understand about Mongolian language and culture?

A: Traditional Mongolian wasn’t always exactly what it is now—it evolved bit by bit. Different regions speak differently. For example, I saw Mongolian in Xinjiang on the news; it sounded different, too. Each place has its own characteristics.

Q: Are some herders’ incomes reduced because of grazing bans or restrictions on free grazing?

A: Yes.

Q: Does the government provide subsidies? Do they help?

A: Subsidies help in some ways—someone is giving them support. But on the other hand, some people think: “Since the government gives subsidies, we don’t need to work.” Some really think like that.

Q: Can their daily living expenses be covered by subsidies?

A: No. The subsidies are small—just a few thousand yuan a year. What can a few thousand do nowadays?

Q: Have subsidies increased with inflation over the years?

A: No, but living costs are rising. Pastoral households have even higher expenses. Land is expensive, too.

Q: Because the land belongs to the government?

A: No. Whoever owns more land—or more livestock—rents land to others.

Q: So subsidies don’t really compensate for the psychological or economic difficulties?

A: Right. Emotional needs and material subsidies are completely different. In psychology, we separate the person from the problem. But in pastoral areas, people treat everything as a family matter—the person and the issue get tied together.

Q: How do you support them as a counsellor in such cases?

A: I teach them knowledge about life and development. But sometimes they don’t accept psychologists. They say, “We don’t have psychological problems—why should we listen to a psychology teacher?” They are very conflicted. Even when family issues clearly cause a child’s depression, they deny it: “What problems could our family possibly have? The child has food, clothes—why won’t they study properly?”

Q: In the future, if you have grandchildren and schools teach only Mandarin, would you still teach them Mongolian at home?

A: Yes. We have many Mongolian books at home.

Q: So you definitely want to pass the language down?

A: Yes.